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Old 15-03-2010, 09:09 PM   #31
Clark @ PB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodo Factory View Post
This is a good point spooks.

The problem is that bodyshops do use products in a certain way, and it ain't how amateur detailers are using them. The end results that are being aimed for may be different as well... who wants to finish down an insurance job on a Fiesta to Clark's ne plus ultra if you're paid 25 GBP an hour by the insurance co and given the parts?!! So the reality is that even the pros won't work a compound for however long may be needed. That's why I presumably see more filling than maesal with 3.02 - I work the compound a short to average amount of time only. Boredom then sets in. I do another set or start finishing down. I think Kelly will testify to my short attention span

If you work a polish for longer, it will potentially cut more, the abrasives may become smaller so it will cut finer, and the panel will become hotter - helping fillers bond. This is the missing part of the jigsaw. Wipedowns aren't always as effective at one panel temp than another.

In effect, if you step down perfectly without wipedowns then perfect correction can be achieved, because these products will have a diminishing cut and increasing refinement. But commercial pressures have seen detailers offering one day machine correction and that is difficult to achieve on some paints. One day paint enhancement is easy. But proper correction... the jury is out unless it's soft paint What is possible is a semblance of proper correction in a day using a reduced number of steps and an increased reliance on fillers - inadvertenly, not deliberately, I am sure.

The revelations are 1) don't believe the finish you see, 2) don't believe the wipedown unless you are sure of its effectiveness and 3) don't believe compound manufacturers if they say products don't fill unless you have found the same result IN PRACTICE using your techniques. If you want to change your technique to one that the manufacturer claims results in less filling, great, but the oils, waxes and resins in these products may have some effects in some situations and other effects in others. They are often in the product to begin with, but get worked to death and have less effect with longer working times. It could catch out the 'quick compounder'.
Really good post and many good points - I'm loving this thread!
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Old 15-03-2010, 09:25 PM   #32
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Really good post and many good points - I'm loving this thread!
Agreed, very useful info.

If we take fcp as an example, as its a product I know well, If its used as I do with a long working time, the heat bonds the fillers to the panel. This would be corrected by the next stage being extra fine? This in turn corrected by ultrafina? - all in theory of course!

I also agree with your point about not believing everything the manufacturer says, but if they recommend that we use their products in a certain order in order to get a certain finish, ie fcp followed by ef followed by uf, then surely someone who uses fcp as a one step has only themselves to blame!

As a manufacturer yourselves Dodo, your product must work in a particular system, if someone chooses to alter that system that cant be down to the product.

So again, could the problems be related to how we use them , as we all agree there are so many variables, i suspect we will never know. Unfortunately, someone reading this post probably now thinks fcp is a poor product
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Old 15-03-2010, 09:34 PM   #33
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That's probably somethign we should clarify, there's absolutely nothing wrong with FCP,105,3.02 etc etc - as long as you're aware of how they should be used and what should be used to follow them up with after thorough wipe downs etc.

It will depend greatly on the person using them, possibly(probably?) the heat they generate whilst using them and if they wipe the panel down when it's hot or cold - in my opinion of course
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Old 15-03-2010, 09:38 PM   #34
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FCP is a great product. But it can fill.

That is the take out. The whole point isn't that filling is bad, as it can be fantastic in practice and the bodyshop industry loves it for this very reason. But we all need to be aware of how products work and the variables at play. What I thought interesting was the way we (mainly amateur) detailers had latched onto a little bit of the bodyshop and claimed it as our own. Even poor old Kelly at KDS who is bodyshop trained from way back was starting to doubt what he'd learned and seen when viewing the posts here...

Regarding a product range, it is true and a fair point what you say. But people will use a product in any which way they want. We advise and write instructions for our stuff, but still we try and make them as easy to use as possible by minimising user error and maximising performance from minimum user input. If someone was unkind they may say making it 'idiot proof' is the aim, but consumers aren't idiots - they just don't have the time or inclination to read the label

Finally, I do think there is a certain case of maximising the look of a compound by adding glaze oils, minimising hologramming through filling characteristics and then slapping 'anti-hologram' or even 'bodyshop safe' on the bottle. That is marketing at play. It doesn't make it a bad product but it may make a guy in a bodyshop pick it up and start using it. Just look to the product, not the label.
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Old 15-03-2010, 10:02 PM   #35
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And we all agree that it can fill more or less based on a host of variables, is that down to the product or the user?

Awareness of how products work and the variables, will come from posts like this but it would be nice to see some compound manufacturers contribute , to give the consumer gets the facts they need, if we take any number of compounds as examples, how many come with instructions?

Compound manufacturers - Marketing at play!! from the Dodo Factory!!!!lol

When is the announcement regarding your new range of non filling , non glazing, no hologram Dodo compounds
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Old 15-03-2010, 10:07 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by spooks View Post
When is the announcement regarding your new range of non filling , non glazing, no hologram Dodo compounds
I've made my own, it's just a bottle of sand from the local beach - just add water
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Old 15-03-2010, 11:03 PM   #37
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We are working on compounds at the moment, James B has had a very quick play of one of them.

But when we do them we will do them Dodo style - maybe put a fill guide as well as cut guide on the bottles perhaps???!
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Old 16-03-2010, 08:03 AM   #38
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We are working on compounds at the moment, James B has had a very quick play of one of them.

But when we do them we will do them Dodo style - maybe put a fill guide as well as cut guide on the bottles perhaps???!
And based on your earlier post, we should believe not a word of it!!!


I still cant figure if filling is a by product of compounding - full stop, or if it is a result of incorrect useage or poor technique.

Its always easier to blame a product, there arent many posts on here showing poor methods

If filling is indeed a by product of compounding, what does a consumer do to minimise it, and what do they look for when buying a product?
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Old 16-03-2010, 08:56 AM   #39
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Really good information.
I find it very interesting also this thread on Autopia:

http://www.autopia.org/forum/machine...teresting.html
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Old 16-03-2010, 09:04 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by spooks View Post
A great point, could it be possible that people experience polishes filling more due to incorrect use as well, in general - not in this particular test.

Interestingly, when 3m came to our bodyshop to do training, they advised us to polish multiple times and used a glass cleaner of all things to check between passes, despite claiming it had no filling abilities!

They do however recommend that fcp is followed by extra fine which is followed by ultrafina. I often wonder if alot of product problems can be traced back to not following the guidlines of the manufacturer who formulated it in the first place?
Spooks,

I have never used FCP WITHOUT then using extra fine (yellow top) and then ultrafina (blue top) , this is how i have always got the perfect finish as so many people ask on BMW's and AUDI's etc .

Its when just FCP has been used with a quick pass (refining) were i have seen problems a few months later

As clark wrote i can be 2-3 whole days just compounding with FCP many passes before moving onto refining even when a DRY wipe down could look corrected after one hit , i started testing myself due to the one day claims and seeing some horrid work from so called detailers a few months after machine correcting just to satisfy my interest .

Has anyone ever looked at the 3m bottle of FCP , the chart showing how heavy each cut is ?

As Fast Cut Plus shows less cut than Fast Cut , so why Is it called PLUS and why have the RED box around the triangle for FCP only is this to show thats what is in the bottle or is it something added which is not in the other compounds , would love a 3M rep to clear this up some more

Kelly

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